Cure

[Kamui_X]

Searched around, and couldn't find any discussions on this film. So I figured I'd start one, since I have a few questions about it. I just got it on DVD the other day, and watched it for the 3rd time last night (saw it twice previously last year). Along with Jisatsu Circle, it's my all time favorite Asain film.

I pretty much have a good idea of what I think happened. I love movies like this, because you can come to your own conclusions. But even though I can unlock films by people like David Lynch and David Cronenberg SOMEWHAT easily, it always seems like I can't fully grasp some things in Asain films, or even foreign films in general. It's like I always feel that I'm losing something in translation. So I have a few questions about the film that maybe someone can help shed some light on, and then maybe I can finally come to a conclusion on this film. So here's my questions....

************SPOILER WARNING**************





Who exactly is the person Sakuma see's in the building where Takaba and Mamiya meet at the end of the film? I've paused the DVD, zoomed in, and I still can't figure out who it's supposed to be. Also, does anyone have ANY idea what Sakuma's entire dream sequence is trying to point out??

Did Sakuma really kill himself, or do you think he was killed?? On the DVD I have (the official Japanese R2), the translation says it looked like suicide, and he strangled himself. But with all of the blood, I'm thinking he was killed by having his corided arteries slashed like everyone else. Did he really do this to himself?? And then there's the handcuffs....

What exactly are your ideas on the meaning of the words that the record player (or whatever that was) plays when Takaba sits down after killing Mamiya??

Well, these are my burning questions when it comes to this film. Everything else I think I've figured out. Hopefully if some people can give some feedback on these, I can come to a final conclusion on the film. Or maybe the answers will totally change my view on everything else. Who knows!! :P

spoiler warning added by mod

[Mandi Apple]

Originally Posted by Kamui_X

Searched around, and couldn't find any discussions on this film. So I figured I'd start one, since I have a few questions about it.

Good call: IMHO it's a great movie. I totally loved it, despite - or maybe because of - its vagueness. Superb acting, mystical story - what more can a person ask for?

But even though I can unlock films by people like David Lynch and David Cronenberg SOMEWHAT easily, it always seems like I can't fully grasp some things in Asain films, or even foreign films in general. It's like I always feel that I'm losing something in translation.

I guess there are always going to be language/culture barriers that ensure that yeah, Western audiences - even clued-up ones - are going to miss something along the way. Most of the inconclusive endings, I'm sure, are meant to get folks thinking, and that they do very successfully.

However, with a movie like Cure, or Suicide Circle as well come to that, I'm also fairly sure that lots of things which look like "unlockable" clues aren't actually clues to anything at all.

I'm convinced that many of the mysterious elements in SC are simply set-dressing, Sono trying to add extra confusion to the already-confusing story, and I feel that maybe lots of elements in Cure are similar - they look as if they may contribute more to the plot, but are probably not as meaningful as they appear.

However, I've not seen the movie for a good year or so, so I'll have to watch it again before I can begin to think about your questions - has anyone else seen it lately? I'm afraid I don't have any theories to offer 'cos it's just so long since I last watched it! :P

Besides which, actually, why do you want a 100% conclusion to the movie? I'm quite happy to keep on chewing over the films I haven't fully understood, and discussing them with other people who might have totally different theories to mine! I'm not sure I ever want to know for sure!

[Kamui_X]

Oh, your definitely right. This movie is awesome because of it's open endness (is that a word? :P). Trust me, I had A LOT more questions than those, but those were the ones that I figured HAD to mean something. Well, Sakuma's dream in particular. I suppose the recording at the end could just be more layers laid down by Kurosawa to give the film a poetic feel...which it actually has through the whole film IMO.

Basically, I'm fine not knowing everything there is to know. I classify this film with the likes of Jisatsu Circle, Donnie Darko, Cemetery Man, and some others, in the sense that not understanding everything is a plus. These films I look at like paintings. You can come up with your own ideas on what it mean, but you'll never be able to fit every piece together. And if you did, it wouldn't be fun anymore. But I KNOW that dream has some important signifigance!!!! :P

[Judge Rage]

I wish I had answers to thsoe questions, too.

Although there has been a lot of talk about the genius of leaving the movie open-ended, I found the ending a bit abrupt, and therefore unsatisfying. I really liked the movie as a whole, it's style was addictive, but the ending didn't do anything for me.

[Gizmola]

I reviewed Cure for IMDB some while back. Needless to say, I loved the movie. Here's my review and take on why it's such a great movie:

Summary: An enigmatic hypnotic and disturbing meditation on self control and the fear of losing it

It's not easy to give yourself over to this film, for like the unwilling victims' it portrays, it rather slowly and methodically casts its spell, whisking you farther and farther away from the comfortable rhythm and conventions of the crime thriller it appears to be on the surface.

Kyua's austere landscapes are in fitful turns picture postcard beautiful, mundane and mysterious. Much of the story unfolds in master shots, keeping you at a distance from the characters and affording the illusion of a comfortable intellectual detachment which it meticulously strips away scene by scene.

The plot is deceptively simple; a weary Japanese Homicide detective is investigating a series of grotesque murders. Each murder seems to have the same ritualistic pattern, yet in each case the culprit turns out to be an ordinary individual, dazed and unable to offer any motive for their horrific crime. Nothing seems to connect the murderers to each other, until the Detective picks up the trail of an amnesia afflicted drifter who seems unable to answer even the simplest questions about himself, yet displays a disconcerting ability to reflect any line of questioning about his own identity back upon the questioner. Time and again he returns to a question at the core of the mystery:

"Who are you?"

It seems more and more, as the drifter is passed from detective, to guard, to clinician to pyschiatrist, that this question is far more dangerous than anyone might have guessed.

Kyua is a model of subtlety and restraint. Although there's a significant amount of implied violence and several shocking scenes of murder, these aren't gratuitous. Kyua's particular genius is its ability to transform urban Japanese landscapes and even the most common objects from familiar to suspect and eventually sinister: a length of piping, a flashing traffic sign, a blast furnace, the sound of ocean surf at night, a flickering lighter, a dark apartment lined with academic tomes, a puddle of spilled water, the letter X smeared on a wall, a deserted rundown building....

There are few filmmakers with the audacity and imagination to venture into the places Kyua wants to take you. Fincher, Lynch and Cronenberg come to mind as those who time and time again have shown their willingness, and perhaps compulsion to return to the unsettling territory of perception, identity, and the boundary between normalcy and psychosis. If the director's first name were only David (it's not, his name is Kiyoshi Kurosawa) we'd have the makings of a good conspiracy theory here.

The film was released in 1997 but only recently has made it's way to western shores, and US distribution by Cowboy Pictures, and has wound its way inevitably to cable networks like Sundance. It's cast includes Koji Yakusho as the detective Takabe. Fans of Japanese cinema will recognize this fine actor from his award winning roles in "Shall we Dance" and "The eel".

Kyua isn't the type of visceral immediate drama that the average suspense film provides. If you can put aside your preconceived notions and allow it to unfold in its own time, I suspect you will find the questions it asks and secrets it reveals to be all the more disquieting, problematic and in the end profound. Many critics have lined up to call this film a masterpiece, and pegged Kurosawa as one of a number of japanese directors worth watching.

[Gizmola]

I might also mention that Snowblood Apple was one of the first sites I visited which had some information about Cure, so when you mention that it hasn't been discussed much here, that's ignoring the fact that they have a nice synopsis and review of the film.

[Kamui_X]

Originally Posted by Gizmola

I might also mention that Snowblood Apple was one of the first sites I visited which had some information about Cure, so when you mention that it hasn't been discussed much here, that's ignoring the fact that they have a nice synopsis and review of the film.

Uh yeah, I was talking about in the forum. And I didn't need more reviews, I wanted to discuss people's theories and stuff on what they thought it was all about.

[Gizmola]

I really only dropped the review in because I did state what the primary theme of the film is, staying as far away from discussion of plot as I could. I think the obfuscation in the plot is really meant to divert you from the "how" which is really not as important as the "why".

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I believe there are a couple of different takes on the Sakuma suicide. There are really only a few different possibilities:

1. Sakuma did indeed kill himself, because he realized that if he did not take his own life, he would be compelled like all the other victims, to kill someone else... or, if you like, that Sakuma killed the person that he most detested in the world, or was repressing him the most, and that person happened to be himself.

2. That Mamiya killed him... which is unlikely.

3. That Takaba killed him... again unlikely.

Originally Posted by Kamui_X

Searched around, and couldn't find any discussions on this film. So I figured I'd start one, since I have a few questions about it. I just got it on DVD the other day, and watched it for the 3rd time last night (saw it twice previously last year). Along with Jisatsu Circle, it's my all time favorite Asain film.

I pretty much have a good idea of what I think happened. I love movies like this, because you can come to your own conclusions. But even though I can unlock films by people like David Lynch and David Cronenberg SOMEWHAT easily, it always seems like I can't fully grasp some things in Asain films, or even foreign films in general. It's like I always feel that I'm losing something in translation. So I have a few questions about the film that maybe someone can help shed some light on, and then maybe I can finally come to a conclusion on this film. So here's my questions....

************SPOILER WARNING**************

Who exactly is the person Sakuma see's in the building where Takaba and Mamiya meet at the end of the film? I've paused the DVD, zoomed in, and I still can't figure out who it's supposed to be. Also, does anyone have ANY idea what Sakuma's entire dream sequence is trying to point out??

Did Sakuma really kill himself, or do you think he was killed?? On the DVD I have (the official Japanese R2), the translation says it looked like suicide, and he strangled himself. But with all of the blood, I'm thinking he was killed by having his corided arteries slashed like everyone else. Did he really do this to himself?? And then there's the handcuffs....


spoiler warning added by mod

[SupraKarma]

Read this interview, it will clear up alot of questions (it helped for me):

http://www.reel.com/reel.asp?node=fe...views/kurosawa

[Bob The Cow]

Not too long ago this got released in the US. They're releasing these more and more often.

[def_tone]

Hi i was wondering if anyone knew who the composer of that extremely beautiful piano piece we hear in two occations in Cure.
You know, the small melody we hear during one of the buss travels and during the end credits.It really has an effect since the rest of the movie has no music at all ( apart from the rumbling sound and the rusty clanks) and therefore it seems perhaps even more beautiful than it really is.

[Mandi Apple]

IMDB lists the composer as 'Gary Ashiya', but I couldn't find anything by him anywhere for sale - sorry Seems he did the music for lots of Kurosawa movies, inc. Ju-on: The Grudge, Charisma etc too...

[jim harper]

Originally Posted by Kamui_X

I classify this film with the likes of ...Cemetery Man ...in the sense that not understanding everything is a plus.

I think I've understood everything in Cemetery Man and it's still one of my all-time favourite films. Could tlak about that one forever...

I enjoyed Cure. I felt Hypnosis tried to mine the same territory, and failed, while Suicide Circle went a slightly different route and managed to make it a little more sensational. I definitely feel all three films are related and worth viewing together.

[def_tone]

Mm, this is a bit off topic but i thought id just post it here. Since i couldnt find notes for the piano melody in Cure i decided to write it down as well as i could. It actually sounds fairly well i think

If anyone is interested in testing these notes out, please tell me and il mail it to you.

[Losstarot]

SPOILER WARNING

I know this is off topic but I think it’s worth pointing out. At the end of the film when Takabe and Mamiya are in the abandoned building Mamiya is wearing the same trench coat that Takabe wears throughout the film. And after Takabe kills Mamiya and you see him in the restaurant he’s wearing the coat again with no blood stains or bullet holes at all.

[Mandi Apple]

Originally Posted by Losstarot

I know this is off topic

I don't think that was off-topic at all - I think that was really perceptive of you, I never would have noticed that in a million years! (I'm going to have to go back and watch the movie now to see this - unfortunately though I only have a lousy VCD of it, I need to get this on DVD... )

[Fulltime Ando Lover]

I had a thought about this movie...

***Spoiler***

When the doctor Sakurma saw a man looking through window at barn, maybe that was his true self and that when Takabe the detective goes to see Mamiya maybe that guy is him because Mamiya says 'By letting me escape you could find out my true secret all by yourself, but anyone who wants to meet his true self is bound to come here, its fate' But Takabe only sees Mamiya so maybe that is suppose to be him and the personalities where split in two. Though how does that explain the Mamiya and Takabe being seen as two different people. The ending really confused me.

***End Spoiler***

[logboy]

although some people seem to have found it hard to find : the usa dvd of CURE is quite easy to track down... dvdpacific = £11.60 plus postage...

[Nensha1922]

After trying to get my little hands on Kaïro after Mandi's recommendation, which I unfortunately couldn't find yet, I discovered the US DVD of Cure in a local online shop and gave it a try.





***POSSIBLE SPOILERS AHEAD***





And how well worth it was. The movie didn't let me go until the (sudden) end, and kept staying in my mind for a long time. First, I also think that Cure plays with the viewer concerning what makes sense/what has a meaning and what not. It seems to be a movie that doesn't want to be completely unlocked, and I also think that it doesn't need to. In fact, once the viewer has solved every mystery of a movie, it's not the same movie anymore. A fine example would be Ringu (and the remake even moreso, of course), where every frame of the cursed video can be analysed and (mostly) satisfyingly interpreted. It's not that easy with Cure. I think I have to see it one more time before I can share some theories about it, and I don't have any answers for Kamui_X's questions yet, but I think that I understood what Kurosawa is trying to say. His message about the whole identity thing, that no one really has an identity and therefore never can be just 'himself' is deeply disturbing, but I can see much truth in it. You're a different person everyday, depending on where you are, who's with you and what's around you. I know that from myself, I always try to make a certain impression when I meet certain people, and when I'm talking to a good friend of mine, it's not the same person that's talking to the ex-girlfriend. I don't talk to different friends of mine in the exact same way. You're always influenced by your surroundings. And that's where Mamiya comes to mind - the only way to be truly yourself in society is to forget your surroundings, to forget who was talking to you the second before and to forget who you are or who you want to be. Only then you can be your pure self, that's when you're able to discover who you really are because nothing interferes with you. And that's the scary thing about it: the moment you're doing this, you completely lose your identity. You transform from different someones into a no-one.

But my ultimate confusion is Mamiya's motive for the murders. I just don't see one yet, and I can see the obvious connection between the slashed-in X's and the gesture Mesmer is using on the tape, but why is Mamiya making his victims kill another person? Has it something to do with this whole identity thin, with Mamiya wanting his victims to be like him, erasing their surroundings and thus destroying their identities? To the doctor he says that he can see inside everyone except himself becaus he's empty. I'm not sure yet what exactly that could mean, any suggestions? It would be also interesting to know why the doctor removes the face of her victim, but again, that might be one of those bits of the film that don't want to be unlocked.

What I also noticed are some stunning visual similarities to Dark Water and Ring, for example the water dropping from the ceiling, the spilled water flowing on the ground and the strange woman on the old hypnosis tape who strangely reminds me of Shizuko. I wonder if there's some influence since Cure predates both movies, but it's probably a little far fetched, especially for Ringu. Or what do you think?

[Mr. Vengeance]

Wow. A great interpretation of the film. To try to answer your question about the female doctor, I think she did that in a partially dazed state shortly after killing the stranger. You might remember that, when she was talking to Mimura, there was mentioned something about her practicing on a male cadaver in medical school. I think the reason she removed his face has a little to do with her first experience practicing on a cadaver, it being male, and her coldness or inexperience with men and the fact that she was hypnotised. It is also possible that Mimura implanted the suggestion hypnotically, but I highly doubt it.